Posts by Juan Viejo2

6

Field Ministry is like 1980 Milk Carton Missing Child

by LevelThePlayingField in

imagine going to the door today and showing the householder a milk carton from 1980 with a missing child on it and asking, "have you ever seen this child?

" the householder looks and quickly says, "no i haven't, sorry.".

then the next door, same thing.

Juan Viejo2

I think "...PlayingField" has a very good point. Back in the 1950s when I was growing up and very active in the door-to-door service, we were all under the impression that "the End" was literally coming within just a few years - if not months. All of our Sunday "public" talks (which were a full hour long in those days) - no matter what their advertised subject was - all ended with an admonishment to "stay awake and stay active" as "the End" was so very close.

Not only were the Witnesses preaching "end times" - but several TV preachers were pumping the airwaves full of "the end is just around the corner" and "the King of the North (Russia) will soon attack the King of the South (USA and Great Britain) and start Armageddon." Some still do - but for most of those who listened to their prophetic ministry - their end has already come - not due to Armageddon, but from natural causes, disease, old age, and accidents.

Every public talk and every "assembly" or "convention" set aside some amount of time to remind us all that Armageddon was coming very soon. I remember one "circuit servant" who gave the Sunday talk at our Kingdom Hall actually stopping briefly and asking all the children under 10 years old to stand up briefly and stay that way for about 5 minutes while he counseled us to "be very, very good. Obey your parents and the servants in the Kingdom Hall always and never question their authority or wisdom." He then spent the rest of his talk describing what Armageddon might be like and then reminded us that "it will surely come before most of you in this room will die from natural causes - especially you children."

I had nightmares for weeks after that talk.

And now, well over 50 years have passed and the world is basically unchanged for most of us.

Wait! That's not quite true - we've all gotten older, some of us have died, and now our grandchildren who are now Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching their children the same thing - that Armageddon will likely come in their lifetimes - literally right around the corner.

What has changed is much of what the Watchtower taught in those years is now obsolete and they are literally telling the local congregations to start tossing almost everything published before 1990 and some things published since then. The Watchtower wants the evidence of their lying and misinformation to disappear from Kingdom Hall shelves and the bookcases and headboards of their rank and file members.

I can assure everyone here that as a JW child and young active Witness, I truly believed that the Watchtower knew what they were talking about. Now as an old man grown tired and gray, I truly believe they were just selling us hogwash and bullshit.

The new Governing Body is even less informed and Biblically knowledgeable than the leadership that existed in the 1950s - through the 1980s. They've even admitted under oath that they are not experts in most of their own rules and teachings - note their testimony of Geoffrey Jackson during the Australian child abuse court hearings. Every one of those who were in power (including that Governing Body member) and others in management positions testified to the court that they were not experts on either doctrinal or organizational issues - but they were still in authority.

I believe in my heart that the Watchtower will still be here in 2040 in some form. By then they will have already erased most of their history - including what they are doing and teaching now - and still be blaming the rank and file JWs for "misunderstanding" the "truths" that failed to work out or happen as the Watchtower prophecied. They will deny that they published and taught the "truths" they are now pushing upon their followers. Their main goal will still be to collect and hoard the millions of dollars that their followers contribute every year - and will likely have sold off their present New York properties and those in other countries for billions of dollars to send off to their Pennsylvania based corporation to distribute to the hidden real owners of the Watchtower corporations.

JV

17

JW Nut Telling His Story Online

by pale.emperor in

while searching for some jw related stuff online, i stumbled across this page created by a pimi.

his name is steve mcdowell and a watered down version of his story was published in the watchtower https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150701/bad-to-worse-life-story/.

however, this version, he says, is the full version.

Juan Viejo2

Reading this fellow's account brought back some personal memories and we may have crossed paths during those years.

I worked for the Bell Telephone Company (Pacific Telephone) during that time period. Just prior to the 1975 debacle I was working at the telco central office located just across the street from Leimert Park mentioned in his testimony. The JW Kingdom Hall/Assembly Hall was located across the street on the north side of the park, about the length of a football field from where my office was.

While working there (1972-1974) I had several opportunities to see the inside of the KH/AH and meet some of the people there. On the weekends they were scattered all over the park with their magazines irritating the hell out of the local residents. It was a quick and easy way to get a couple of hours in. I heard from a co-worker (who was a JW) that the local Witnesses would spend a half hour walking around the park "placing magazines" and handing out handbills for the public talks. They would often get walk-ins from the park for their Sunday afternoon meetings. The place had been a full-sized theater - so there were plenty of empty seats when a convention wasn't in session. They were really pushing the 1975 prediction.

In fact, one young telephone installer who reported to me turned out to be a JW. I've told this story a hundred times - but here is #101.

One day while I was riding along as his supervisor to assess his work and productivity, he happened to try to witness to me. At first I just let him ramble, but then he told me about 1975 being the beginning of "Armageddon." I let him feed me his spiel for a bit and then told him that I had been raised a JW - so I knew what he was talking about. He asked me what Hall I went to and I told him that I left the religion about 5 years before.

You would have thought I was the Devil Incarnate. He completely went out of control and told me that he did not want to continue with our ride-along. I explained that we could stop our discussion, but he was still required to continue working and I was required to continue supervising. And then I tried to reason with him, he got completely crazy on me. Not violent - but just totally lost it otherwise. I offered to buy him lunch and let him calm down - but he insisted that we just finish our work tasks and then return to our company garage. It was totally uncomfortable for both of us until we got back. He did not want to talk to me at all.

He immediately filed a grievance against me with the union steward. That was OK with me because the ranking union rep was a reasonable guy (both he and the young installer were African- American). During the grievance meeting the installer stated his case - that he was a JW and did not want to work with a supervisor who was an "evil-doer" (the term "apostate" was not frequently used in those days like it is now).

We negotiated an agreement that he would be reassigned to another crew that was supervised by an African-American fellow - who happened to be much harder on his crew than I was - his crew was the top crew in the garage and he made sure that his guys worked twice as hard and twice as fast as those in other crews. Gave them hell anytime they got a customer complaint.

So the young fellow created his own private hell - and soon left the company after just a few months to either go pioneering or off to where "the need was greater." I was sorry for us both - because he was a good employee and had a future ahead of him - and I lost a telephone man with good career potential.

Several months later after I had been assigned to another location, I came back for a management meeting being held at that central office.

A few of the attendees took a lunch break at a small restaurant next to the huge Kingdom Hall. The doors to the hall were open - so some of us went inside the building which was being "refreshed." I thought I saw the young man working up on the stage. When he saw us come in, he looked right at me and quickly disappeared offstage.

Another JW working there walked up to us and carried on a brief, but friendly, conversation. He described the work that was in progress and told us that they were getting prepared for "the great war of Armageddon" that "was definitely going to happen within the next few months." The hall was being prepared to act as a possible "safety area" that would be protected from the mayhem that would be going on around them.

I think the hall was later sold and restored as a theater for both movies and African-American oriented theater events.

I will never forget my time at working there for nearly three years. I still wonder whatever became of that young JW fellow. I know for sure he did not die due to Armageddon. So sad...

JV

39

Major Article in Today's Philadelphia Inquirer on JW Child Abuse

by Room 215 in

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/jehovahs-witnesses-sexual-abuse-children-beliefs-rules.html.

Juan Viejo2

50

You Know You're Starting To Wake Up When...

by pale.emperor in

you start listening to music deemed "unsuitable for christians".

you pretend to knock on the doors.

you explain a jw teaching to someone and realize how ridiculous it sounds.

Juan Viejo2

When you get counseled by an elder for reading the Bible cover to cover without using any WT publications.

When you wonder why elder Jones is so high ranking when he is on his third wife, most of his kids are high school dropouts, are showing signs of drug usage, or clearly have serious behavioral problems.

When you simply can not stay awake during Brother Fullovit's public talk no matter how hard you try.

You are given the job of clearing out the Kingdom Hall library and are told NOT to distribute the old books to any JWs, but ordered to take them to the dump or have someone shred them.

You realize that there is nothing "fun" about being a JW - even though everyone claims to be so happy as JWs.

40

This probably sounds uppity. I'm saying it anyhow

by stillin in

jw
friends

has anybody else noticed a pattern that is here among us outcasts?

there seems to be, on average, a higher level of intelligence here than there is at the kingdom hall.

actually, intelligent conversation seems to be looked down upon among the witnesses.. also, the simple language skills found here seem to be above average compared to those among the witnesses.

Juan Viejo2

Dozy wrote:

"I was a JW for 40 years and knew numerous JWs but I never met anyone who could be regarded as really intelligent. I'm sure there are some out there, but I never came across one. Being a JW kind of chokes off any intellectual curiosity and thirst for knowledge which is essential to keep on growing and people, even if well educated initially (albeit pretty unusual with JWs ), tend to stagnate at best, or regress."

Dozy got it right.

I was fortunate to meet several very intelligent JWs of both genders. They all had one thing in common: The ability to express their disagreements with Watchtower literature - or the wit and wisdom of local and traveling elders - without going over the line and actually trying to engage the consent or participation of others. What they said was, more or less, "in passing."

But I learned a lot from those JWs and what they did accomplish was to make me rethink my participation and dedication to a very errant and defective religious clan.

And that's what we were: a "clan." It was always "us JWs" versus [the rest of the world] [Satan] [false religion] [evil ones] [politicians] [Catholic Church] [apostates] [you pick one].

For many, it was truly a fight to the death. As soon as they got into that "sweet spot" of being "dedicated to Jehovah's service," then all other facts, new scientific knowledge, world news, and changing political positions were tools used by Satan to "weaken our faith." We were dedicated to resisting anything and anyone that MIGHT weaken our faith.

That's why our "clan" would only listen to others in the clan. Everything and everyone else was suspect, but the old sister in the backseat who rambled on about how "Satan was tempting us" and "placing roadblocks in our way at every opportunity" was accepted as someone "mature" and "in the know."

Being "dedicated to Jehovah's work" was a sign that a person held in some higher regard and rank by God and should therefore be given every opportunity to express their opinion - while our opinion was mostly worthless and suspect.

During my nearly 20 years of association with Jehovah's Witnesses, I probably met less than two dozen JWs of any rank or level of participation that I really considered intelligent and credible. Two of them did what they had to do, but limited their participation as much as possible. One other was a former Bethelite who was clearly "tainted" by his personal experiences while serving at WT HQ.

What I did realize as I aged into the "maturity" of my 20s was that the levels of real intelligence and knowledge was quite low among my JW peers. Few were truly credible. Some were clearly hypocrites and posers. Some were totally ignorant of even basic knowledge.

I came from an era when television sets and movie theaters were "sources of sin and designed by the Devil to waste our time." Once - while sitting in a car with a couple of older JWs (I was about 10 or 11) - I mentioned that I watched "Victory at Sea" (a famed documentary series about World War 2) on our 12-inch black and white TV that my father had recently purchased for $125. You would have thought that I had admitted to watching the vilest of porn - not something historic and informing.

So I understand the alarming level of overall ignorance of Jehovah's Witnesses. Stupid and ignorant people will tend to accept stupid and ignorant mis-information from others of their clan, passing it on to others, and therefore growing and spreading their ignorance. That's why gossip (some really nasty and unwarranted) was popular among JW sisters of my time - especially spouses of "servants" [we did not call them "elders" in those days].

God! I really miss those halcyon days of obscene ignorance and hypocrisy. But those qualities are still very much appreciated by modern JWs and their leadership.

JV

9

Watchtower practice of shunning relatives -- when did it begin?

by FatFreek 2005 in

the oldest reference i can find is 2012, as follows:.

"think of that if you are ever tempted to violate god’s command not to associate with your disfellowshipped relatives.

" the watchtower 2012, 4/15/ p. 12 par.

Juan Viejo2

My family first connected with JWs in 1951. At that time, my understanding was that Disfellowshipping was an active belief and policy but rarely used. I mean - if you killed someone - yes, you would be tossed out and shunned. Most often it was applied to sexual indiscretions if you got caught or confessed to that type of sin.

It wasn't until the late 1950s and early 1960s that there was an increase in the application of DF and shunning. In fact, being put on a review status was far more applicable. That type of thing would apply to observed drunkenness (but not excessive private drinking or alcoholism - a common situation in those days).One brother would slur his words while doing the opening or closing prayer, but no one ever said anything although his secret was common knowledge. Smoking could get you DF'd, but not in all congregations - and rarely if you promised to stop. (A lot of the older brothers would "stop" or claim to not smoke - but you could still smell it all over their clothes or on their breath.)

That was really what it was all about: Some congregations were run by hardnosed "Company Servants" (later, Congregation Servants and then Elders) who jumped on anything that was not inline with JW rules. Others would counsel and encourage and try to get the offenders to change their ways - more like counseling. Sexual indiscretions were dealt with more harshly than other offenses.

But in the mid to late 1960s after the 1975 predictions began to be promoted, all the love was tossed and most congregations took a harder approach to almost everything. Missing meetings, no field service, etc. soon became DF offenses. Sexual offenses were more often dealt with most harshly and the offender's reputations were trashed heavily within the congregations. Alcoholism and drunkenness was a common problem in many congregations. But as long as the "brother with a problem" did not get arrested or beat up his wife, not much was done. In my congregation half of the brothers over 30 had drinking problems and the same was true for the sisters.

You could not be gay unless you were a female. Sisters "living together" who were not siblings were often known to be "lesbos." Although you could tell who some of them were, as long as they did not wear pants to the Kingdom Hall - everything else was off the table. So most congregations had one or two pairs of unrelated "sisters" who lived together "in order to share costs and for companionship." The worst thing for them was the constant gossip and the fact that other women in the congregation would not get too close to them during meetings or service.

In the congregation that I attended there was one suspected gay brother who lived with and took care of his elderly mother. He was quite good looking so all of the sisters were always hitting on him or trying to pair him up. He was very cordial about all of that, but he made it clear that he was responsible for the care of his mother and would have to wait until she passed before he could consider marriage. That did not stop one sister from accusing him of influencing her teenage son (who everyone suspected to be gay from the time he was ten years old.) Nothing was resolved as the servants (my father was one of them) did not want to open that can of worms - not to mention that the older brother was the only pianist available to play Kingdom Songs at the meetings.

But all of that made for good gossip shared by the older sisters on service days. I heard all the rumors and accusations as we rode around the territories. The gossip was far more damaging to the congregation than any suspected private sex between consenting JWs, but not one person male or female was ever called out for spreading rumors - mostly because all of the older sisters and a fair number of "older brothers" would have been in deep trouble.

Ah, I miss the 1950s and 60s. Those were the "good old days."

JV

21

Watchtower Cult Given $81,000 by City of Salem

by rrb2016 in

can you imagine how much money they must make off of all the assemblies?

i counted at least 211 between this week and end of the year.

if they get paid by each city.... .

Juan Viejo2

Decided to add this announcement to the end of this old thread for the benefit of anyone living in or near the SALEM, OREGON area. If you are interested, message me here and I will get back to you with pertinent information and directions as to where a local meeting will be held on Sunday February 25, 2018 and other dates in subsequent months.

Thanks to recent events in Portland, Oregon over the past few weeks, there has been rising interest in establishing a support group for former JWs, unhappy JWs (of which the Salem area has more than its share), and anyone just looking for more information about the Watchtower, Jehovah's Witnesses, and for those looking for a way out of our favorite cult.

Above all we want you to know that this group has been formed to provide positive support and non-medical related counsel to those who feel they need more information or personal assistance because they have JWs in their family, are JWs looking for facts and answers, or current JWs trying to find a possible way out - and also for those who just want to get a cup of coffee and "chew the fat" with some people who not only care about JWs and their families, but have positive attitudes and a real desire to help.

Let me know if you are interested in attending future events or just want additional information. We are also interested in connecting with and teaming up with other likeminded individuals and groups in Oregon and other states.

I'm sorry that I did not have time to announce this sooner, but it literally came together almost overnight. There will be opportunities in the near future for anyone in the area to participate. Again, just message me and I will provide more specific information.

The key word in the above announcement is "positive."

I apologize in advance if I have bent any of the forum rules.

Juan Viejo2

10

Calling All Watchtower Historians ... What was the V.F.V.?

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

in the may 27, 1942 edition of the consolation, the watchtower society devoted several pages to the controversy surrounding the burial of joseph rutherford.

in several sections, they write about "the opposition" in vague terms without much specificity as to who these other groups of people were who were supposedly persecuting them.

one section refers to a group called v.f.v.

Juan Viejo2

I remember while going door-to-door with my father in the mid-1950s encountering a householder who threatened to beat us up and call the police. "I'm a veteran of WW2 and a proud member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars."

My father looked at him and replied, "Well that's good. Where did you serve?"

"The Pacific in the United States Army!"

Dad calmly replied, "Well thank you for your service to our country."

"You Jehovah's Witnesses are all communists and cowards and you deserve to have your ass kicked!"

Dad looked at him and responded. "Well, if you want to kick my butt, feel free to try. But you should know that I too served in the US Army and also in Hawaii. I did not actually go to battle as I was an airplane mechanic. But that was better for me as I never wanted to kill anyone - friend or foe. Now if you still want to come down those stairs and kick my butt for trespassing or disrupting your morning, feel free to try. But accusing me of not serving in the Army isn't a good reason. However, you should know that I would never volunteer again, because Jehovah teaches us not to raise our hand against anyone, friend or foe."

The man behind the screen suddenly came out and looked my father right in the eye. "I apologize sir. While I want nothing to do with your religion, I would like to shake your hand as a fellow veteran." They shook hands and even gave each other a man-hug after that.

My father actually regretted what happened. He was afraid that Jehovah might consider his response to be "bragging about my military service."

But yeah - back in the late 1940s and early 1950s JW men took a lot of flak from veterans and families who had lost someone during the war. We kind of expected it and tried to understand where they were coming from.

JV

10

Calling All Watchtower Historians ... What was the V.F.V.?

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

in the may 27, 1942 edition of the consolation, the watchtower society devoted several pages to the controversy surrounding the burial of joseph rutherford.

in several sections, they write about "the opposition" in vague terms without much specificity as to who these other groups of people were who were supposedly persecuting them.

one section refers to a group called v.f.v.

Juan Viejo2

Yes, the VFW has been a critic of all things Watchtower since they were formed. Here is one incident during the WW2 years:

"https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1107117313

David T. Smith - 2015 - ‎Political Science

54 In Guymon, Oklahoma, in August 1940, a crowd of 1,000 gathered outside a courthouse where six Jehovah's Witnesses entered pleas on charges of violating an anti-peddling ordinance that had been passed a few weeks earlier at the instigation of a local Legion and VFW member. After all six pleaded not guilty a local ... "

52

Have you ever gone back to a meeting out of curiosity?

by stuckinarut2 in

just wondering if anyone has gone back to a meeting out of curiosity?

(perhaps to an area far from your old khall where you know no one).

with all the changes from 2012 onwards (videos, tv screens, new meeting format, new songs etc) it would be an odd experience to be in attendance!.

Juan Viejo2

Dead-ringer for JW Facts. Good looking fellow with a good heart and an excellent head on his shoulders.